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	Member of the International Partnership of Business Schools Bloomington, Boston, Dublin, Lancaster, Madrid, Piacenza, Puebla, Reims, Reutlingen

vE Is that example of a smile and a gun proof that we need one another – even depend on each other?

Well to some extend, we need one another in more ways than one. But it certainly is the case that Europe still has underdeveloped hard power capacities while the United States has hard power and soft power. Europe has far more of one than the other. This is one way that we complement each other but it is not the only way. I think the larger point is not only how much we can accomplish when we work together, but how many things go wrong when we don’t, and in the case of Iraq – not only was it a terrible and acrimonious debate for the transatlantic relationship, but it was for the benefit for Saddam Hussein. He was able to play cat and mouse more effectively, he was able to divide and conquer more effectively. He was able to buy more time, to plan for bad things to happen including to at least some extend the insurgency we face today. So, at a minimum, it does give our adversaries more maneuvering room and Saddam Hussein was an adversary. That was a classic case where the fundamental problem was not Bush, not Schröder, not Blair, it was not Chirac, but it was Baghdad, it was Saddam Hussein. From the debate we seem to lose perspective for that and get very, very angry at each other but not angry at him enough. He was the problem.

vE Mr. Gedmin, you as the Director of Aspen Institute, a German-American think tank here in Berlin, what is your impression of German attitudes towards United States in general? Do we have to revise our views on America?

Well, that is a complicated subject. Germans have mixed views of the United States – and why not? The United States is a complex and contradictory place. There are differences, whether you are talking about Germans of one generation or another, there are differences between those Germans who have never been to America, and those who spent time there. There are differences between those Germans who perhaps belong to one political party spectrum or the other, but I am not even sure of that to be honest with you. I am very hesitant to generalize but I will say that there is anti-Americanism in Europe and there certainly is in Germany. It manifests itself in different ways at different times and sometimes has to do with America but sometimes has to do with Germany and Germans. This is a country that was divided, it was a country that lacked sovereignty, it was a country that did not liberate itself from fascism – it was liberated from the outside, it was a country that helped protect itself during the Cold War but was heavily dependent on the outside again during the Cold War. It was a country that unified itself but again was heavily dependent on the United States in the unification process. It was a country with other European countries that dealt with Bosnia and Kosovo but was heavily dependent on the United States. Well, dependence, dependence, and dependence breeds resentment, breeds envy, breeds frustration – some of them conscious, some of them subconscious and I think that comes to the floor, now. You know, part of it having to do with America – our behavior, our mistakes – but part of it having to do with a Germany that felt so dependent for so long and now wants to flex its muscles and say “We don’t need you, we are not a junior partner. We are big. We are important.” I think this is partly what the transatlantic debate is about and partly what Iraq was about. It takes time and this today’s Germany is still a work in progress and Berlin is a work in progress – let’s see how it looks in five to ten years.

vE Would you say that our opinions about each other are too heavily influenced by politics, and that we should look at a nation’s everyday life and politics separately?

Yes, that would be nice. It’s hard to separate those things out. I’d like to think on a human ordinary level that Germans and Americans, as well as French and Americans, get along well if they are talking about sports and music, clothes and travel – and I think they do by the way. Media plays a powerful role in shaping perceptions; politics play an important role and the symbolism of politics. It’s quite strange: think of a subject like Kyoto. That did a lot of damage to the standing of the United States and Europe, even though I haven’t met anybody yet who has read the Kyoto treaty. It was a symbolism, it symbolized that Americans didn’t listen to its allies, it symbolized that America didn’t want to deal with the problem of global climate change or deal with it multilaterally, it symbolized that Americans were nationalistic or selfish or arrogant. In truth, Kyoto was a symbol. Global climate change is important but that treaty had no chance with the United States, even if Bill Clinton had stayed President, even if John Kerry had been elected President and the US said that it was dead, dead, dead. And while Europe signed it, much of Europe doesn’t obey or follow it. Ten or eleven countries don’t comply with the Kyoto treaty – and no one really noticed this. But the symbolism is important.

What I want to say: you are right but it is hard to clean these separate things out. Culture and politics and media and symbols mixed together and, right now, the picture of the Bush administration and to some extend America is not very positive in Europe. I think this is partly our fault and I think this is partly the fault of prejudices in Europe.

vE As for the citizens themselves, what should Europeans and Americans do to better understand one another, seeing as we depend on each other? Do we need more of a “private level” approach? For instance, ESB-Reutlin gen, as a member of the International Partnership of Business Schools (IPBS), runs a German-American link in international business studies. Is that an example of partnership on a private level?

Of course it is. We all depend on government far, far too much and let ourselves be object of the press and media far too much. Anything – and you mentioned one very, very important project run by your school - that creates exchanges between business people, between academics, between journalists, between high school students, between university students, between museums, between theatres, between sports teams and, and, and... is only positive because I think this is a long term investment – it doesn’t yield results immediately – but it is a very powerful, important and effective way of breaking down stereo types and breaking down prejudices and Americans happen to know Germans and Europeans and certainly Germans and Europeans happen to know Americans, too. So, anything like that I think is a very important enterprise.

vE Mr. Gedmin, what is your outlook on the future of the transatlantic partnership?

Mixed, but positive: there is so much that we do together – in economy, in trade and in helping each other in Afghanistan and increasingly in Iraq and I still think there is so much more that unites us than divides us. But there is shift since the end of the cold war, there is a shift since September 11, and there is increasing competition about how we see the world and how we see the United Nations and how we see certain problems. So, broadly speaking, I am optimistic. But I think that Iraq was a symptom not a cause and some of these problems run deeper than one might think and it is not the last big transatlantic argument.

So, we have to be positive, we have to be sober and we have to brace ourselves because there are going to be some big arguments still to come. vE Thank you for your time.